20-12-2005, 11:48
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חבר מתאריך: 19.09.05
הודעות: 1,280
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Thanks to everyone for all your stories and answers. Kol ha kavod especially to the vatikim! You guys get the first cup of coffee!
The consensus here seems to be that the FN FAL was heavy, delicate, unreliable in the sand and that nobody was sad to see it replaced. It’s still strange to me that around the world the FAL is considered to be more reliable than the M16. Maybe it’s all a question of perspective or different expectations like people who say the M16 is very reliable but don’t have any experience with an AK or Galil for comparison?
הרומני
I see the guy next to the MAG gunner in the first photo is armed with an AK. Was that a standard weapon in your unit?
In the picture of recruits in Sanur, them all carrying the rifles in their hands. Didn’t you guys use a strap? Does anyone know when the practice of using a rifle while the strap is hanging around your neck tlay-tzavar began and who thought of it?
The trick with the cleaning rod (choter) attached to the barrel reminds me of the stories I read about soldiers in Vietnam doing the same. During the initial fielding of the M16 in 1965-67, there were many occurrences with cartridges getting jammed in the chamber and soldiers there began to tape a rod under the barrel as an emergency fix. 30 years later, during my unit’s switch to the M16 in Tzaylim, I also adopted this method because I kept having the same problem. I believe that these were old zona guns that belonged to the base so maybe there was a faulty extractor part.
Alter
Your pazam in the IDF is almost 5 months more than my vetik on this planet!
I’m curious as to why you think that the FALs in your IDF service may have been hand-me-downs from the Belgian army? This is because during the 60-70s, the FAL was still the front-line rifle for most NATO armies. I think that the Belgian army only began to replace their FALs with the 5.56 FNC in the 80s. And in those days we had to pay for all our weapons in hard cash-so surplus gifts from rich uncles in Belgium are unlikely.
I think that Ta’as also bought the license for the FAL and the MAG and even manufactured some of these in Israel.
I don’t think that the miklaon was designed especially for Israel. FN called the heavy barrel version the FAL-O and I’ve seen a photo of British troops equipped with it. There is a picture of a Canadian version with 30 round magazines here:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/fal_c2.jpg
Similarly, the Americans considered issuing a heavy barrel version of the M14, complete with a bipod and a folding shoulder rest, for the squad automatic role since the rifle was too light to handle 7.62 NATO ammo in full automatic. It was to have been called the M15.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/m14a1.jpg
The current Negev light machine gun also has a folding wire shoulder rest at the end of the stock.
Desertowl/Offerd
I’ve been thinking about the ammo load issue for a while now. Especially since at the beginning of the month we had a training exercise where we went about 15 km by foot in the soft sands of Tzaylim. I have to admit that even carrying only 1 empty mag (but with miles signaling gear, a small 614 radio, and most importantly, the pakal cafe) it was still very challenging for me. And to think that in the sadir I did more with a Galil and a full ammo load!
In studies of WWI, WWII and Korea combat it was found that that almost all combat shootings took place well under 300 meters and that more than half the casualties from bullets came from random fire rather than aimed fire. Thus it was decided that an increased rate of fire was desirable in combat. This is what drove the adoption of assault rifles like the M16 and AK47 that used less powerful and lighter ammunition like the 5.56 or Russian 7.62x39 so that the soldier could carry and shoot more. After 67 & 73 the IDF also went over to 5.56 and this enabled the soldier to carry a standard load of 315 rounds of 5.56 instead of 160 rounds of 7.62. I believe that in 82 this load was confirmed to be appropriate.
Today’s 145-150 rounds is less than half! It sounds like a step backwards to me. Would you suggest that the Negev gunner carry only 360 rounds like the miklaon gunner did? If the higher rate of fire is not necessary, then we can go back to the older generation of weapons using 7.62NATO. At least then the ammunition would be more powerful and better for penetrating sandbags, cars, windows (note the return of the MAG to the platoon level after it was initially replaced by the Negev).
Even though today the use of optics is much more widespread and marksmanship may be more stressed, an infantry soldier doesn’t only shoot when he has a clear target in sight like a sniper does. Also from what I’ve learned here, aimed semi-auto was always taught in the IDF. The only change in firing methodology that I’ve noted since 85 is that you don’t waste rounds shooting for suppression while you are running (medaleging) between positions.
Firepower is still needed even in the current low-intensity combat (LIC) situation like in the Territories, especially since soldiers may be operating in small groups. We can’t always control the situation and expect immediate resupply/reinforcement. What happens when it becomes more high-intensity like during some operations in Gaza or during Chomat Magen? Do you just issue more magazines in time? Sure, for many duties in the territories like guarding or at roadblocks a single tzolevet with 60 rounds is enough, but the ammo load in the effod should be full for worst-case scenarios.
Whether in full scale war or LIC, in a firefight a soldier will still need to fire a lot of ammo at targets which are not clear (hiding behind bushes) and for suppression (chipuy) so that he and his friends can maneuver. I have never been in a war (thank God) but in two incidents in Lebanon and in the Territories I used up 2- 3 Mags in suppressing the target alone, without even closing to making direct contact. Stories I’ve heard of patrols or ambushes that were engaged always told of high ammo usage. Also, don’t forget that unlike in training, in combat you should leave at least one third of ammo for surprises on the way home. I would rather have more and not need it, than need it and not have it. 300 rounds sounds like the right number to me but I’m willing to lower it to 261-270 (9 mags) since that fits so nicely in the effod.
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