אמש, צ’רלי רוז דיבר עם מתיאס דופפנר-Mathias Döpfner. -
יו”ר ענק המדיה הגרמני Axel Springer,
שפועלים ב 36 ארצות. יש להם מעל 170 עיתונים ומגאזינים, כולל ה Bild.

15 דק’ ראשונות היה מעניין בעיקר על iPad וההשפעה שלו על העיתונות בעיקר.
אבל אז הם עוברים לדבר על ישראל.
היו לו כמה נקודות מאוד מעניינות בנושא ארה”ב, אירופה, אירן וטרור איסלמי.

ש: איפה עומדים ביחסי ארה”ב - ישראל?
ת: מצד אחד ישראל עשתה טעות דיפלומטית טפשית,אבל אני לא רואה שינוי עמוק ביחסים.
ישראל עדיין יכולה לסמוך על ארה”ב.
לדעתו השאלה החשובה היא, איזה תפקיד אירופה תשחק.
And is it possible for the enemies of Israel,
for the enemies of democracies,
of particularly Islamic fundamentalists --
is it possible for them to play with Europe against America?
And as long as this is possible,
that is weakening our common values,
the common values of democracy and freedom and stability and security.
מקווה שהבנתי נכון את העמדה שלו - כבעל השפעה בתור מי שמנהל מעצמת מדיה ענקית.
שהוא ענה באותה נשימה שאוייבי ישראל, אוייבי הדמוקרטיות,
בייחוד המוסלמים הקנאים הדתיים הקיצוניים - האם הם יכולים לשחק עם אירופה מול אמריקה?
וכל זמן שזו אפשרות, זה מחליש את ערכי הדמוקרטיה, החופש, היציבות והביטחון.
בהמשך הוא מקווה שאירופה לוקחת עמדה ברורה על אף מה שקרה (הטפשות הדיפלומטית?ע.)
והוא שמח שגרמניה היום, למרות ההסטוריה, ואולי חלקית בגלל ההסטוריה, גרמניה בעלת הברית הכי חזקה של ישראל.

ואז עוברים לנושא אירן.
ש: מה משמעות, השלכה ואפשאויות של הסנקציות?
ת: מקווה שהן יעבדו. צריך לנסות הכל וללחוץ, להראות מה עמדת המערב.
אני לגמרי בעד. אני לא יודע אם זה מספיק.
אני חושב שאם באמת רוצים להמנע מפעולה צבאית, אסור אף פעם לשלול אותה.
if you really want to avoid military action,
then you should never exclude the military option.

וזה המקום שהדעות חלוקות בין אירופה ואמריקה.
אני באמת חושב, שהאיום האירני רציני לחלוטין,
ולא רואה סיבה שדיקטטור כמו אמדניגד לא יבצע מה שהוא מכריז.

ש: אז אם המצב לא מקובל וסנקציות לא יעזרו, מה האופציה?
ת: אף פעם לא לשלול אף אופציה, ואף פעם לא להוריד מערך האיום שחשים אזרחי ישראל.

אני מצרפת את המשך התמליל.
אדגיש עוד משפטי מפתח לדעתי.
וממליצה לצפות בתוכנית כאן:charlie rose

CHARLIE ROSE: If it’s unacceptable and sanctions don’t work, what’s
the option?

MATHIAS DOPFNER: Never exclude an option, and also never
underestimate the very emotional and concrete threat that the people of
Israel feel.

And if you would be in the position of somebody who lives in Israel,
who escaped the holocaust, and who remembers what it means if a political
system wants to extinct Jewish people or the state of Israel, would you
really wait until the apocalypse is happening? Probably not.

‫***‬And so I think we should also be prepared for surprises. And in such
a scenario, it is absolutely vital that Europe and America are acting
together.

CHARLIE ROSE: OK. That brings know the question. What’s the
relationship between the Obama administration and Europe today as you see
it?

MATHIAS DOPFNER: I think Obama is extremely popular in Europe and
particularly in Germany. We had polls, and I think almost 85 percent of
the Germans would have voted for Obama. So he’s very popular. He’s a
charismatic speaker. He has a style to address its people that is very
unfamiliar in Germany, but people like it.

And, of course, he’s now in a way showing the nice face of the United
States, which is technically speaking a huge advantage, because it makes it
a lot harder for Europe and for Germans --

CHARLIE ROSE: How would you define "nice face"? A face that’s
willing to listen to Europe, that takes Europe into consideration, believes
in multi-polarity.

MATHIAS DOPFNER: Exactly -- that takes its partner serious, that has
the capability to listen, that is not in this role of a warlord.

I mean, we are talking about cliches here, but they are important, and
to a certain degree, too, we are talking about very emotional perceptions,
but they’re even more important.

And in this context, again, Obama is a very popular, a very liked face
of America, and that provides a tremendous opportunity if you want to
organize joint activities between Europe and America. If he asks for more
troops in Afghanistan it’s a lot harder to say know no than if his
predecessor would have asked.

CHARLIE ROSE: Is Europe and, do you think, the larger world looking
to the United States for leadership?

MATHIAS DOPFNER: Absolutely. I think the United States are the
leading force if it comes to the defense of freedom and democracy in the
world. And it is important that we see that not with a kind of jealous
sentiment. We really have to be grateful for that. We have to invite and
motivate the United States to play that role and to be the leading role of
freedom --

CHARLIE ROSE: And do you think that the United States needs to
rethink its own brand of capitalism?

MATHIAS DOPFNER: Yes. I think there are two dangers. On the one
hand, you could go back to normal too fast. You could say well, this was
an accident and we have nothing to change, and --

CHARLIE ROSE: Back to business as usual?

MATHIAS DOPFNER: Back to business as usual. And to a certain degree
one can see this here and there. That’s not the right lesson.

On the other hand, you could go into the other direction, you could go
too far by even strengthening the role of the state, of the government, and
by that step by step you could establish kind of central economies that
have nothing to do with free economies, and that’s not going to work
either.

So this is a fine balance of better regulation, not necessarily more
regulation.

CHARLIE ROSE: Why is the European economy lagging behind everybody
else?

MATHIAS DOPFNER: I think is a --

CHARLIE ROSE: Asia, the United States, Latin America in some cases.

MATHIAS DOPFNER: It’s an almost philosophical question and has a lot
to do with the mentality in Europe. Europe is for hundreds of years a very
successful, leading force in the world. And it’s a clear beneficiary of
globalization so far. And the question is, is it going to be the
beneficiary of globalization in the future? I doubt it.

And is a --

CHARLIE ROSE: Europe will not be a beneficiary of globalization in
the future?

MATHIAS DOPFNER: That’s not in question, because if the mentality of
a very successful entity leads to complacency, leads to lack of
competitiveness, then I think this can be very dangerous.

And I think that has to do with the fact that you’ve just described,
that Europe is not doing so successfully. Germany is still a driving
engine and a big beneficiary of the Euro and the globalization so far. But
are we ambitious enough? Are we change-oriented enough in order to
maintain that role of Germany and Europe particularly in competition with
countries like India.

Like non-democratic countries like China -- the non-democratic version
of capitalism is a very interesting version because you don’t have to talk
too much, you don’t have to discuss, you just do. You’re very efficient,
very fast.

If Norman Foster is telling about the -- telling stories about the
project of the Beijing Airport that has been done in a couple of years
while in London people are still debating about the first architectural
competition of a new airport, that has also to do with the fact that in
China nobody has asked whether he wants to remove his house and how it
should be done. It’s simply dictated.

And so the competition with these forces is a tough one.

CHARLIE ROSE: So who dominates in the future? What’s the world going
to look like in 2050?

MATHIAS DOPFNER: Oh, that’s an easy one. I don’t know. ‬התשובה שהכי אהבתי ‫-‬ לא יודע ‫(-:‬ ‫‬

(LAUGHTER)

I mean, I’m -- I’m an optimist and I think -- for me the crucial
question is where will the free western world stand in 20 or 50 years? We
will be still the most powerful model and will democracy and freedom be
more widespread than today?

Take into account more than a third of the world’s population is
living under conditions that have nothing to do with freedom, under
totalitarian systems.

CHARLIE ROSE: My impression there’s more democracy today than there
was 20 years ago.

MATHIAS DOPFNER: There is the Freedom House report, and since decades
they are analyzing the state of freedom in the world in 94 countries, and
for four years in a row now freedom is going down.

CHARLIE ROSE: Now for four years.

MATHIAS DOPFNER: Of course, we are now much better than we were 20
years ago, but nevertheless we are not going in the right direction. And I
think really that has to do with the whole threat of fundamentalism,
terrorism, Islamic fundamentalism.

And the question is how is the west dealing with it? Are we dealing
out of a position of pride and self-confidence? Are we really defending
our values with all the necessary instruments that it takes? Or are we in
a kind of fear, almost decadent state of mind that we say, well, we are
better anyway and we don’t have to use strong methods to fight that?

And then I’m really worried that this kind of cultural revolution,
which it is in the end, can lead to terrible consequences in the world.